Daniel Lanois

♪ >> Hello everyone.

Welcome to another edition of Canada Files .

I'm Jim Deeks.

Our guest on this episode is one of the most successful and respected recording producers in the field of popular music.

Daniel Lanois from Hamilton, Ontario.

You may not know his name but you will know the music... that Daniel has been instrumental in bringing to the music industry.

And the artists he has worked for, and with, over a career spanning nearly 50 years.

Like Bob Dylan, Peter Gabriel, Robbie Robertson, and U2.

And the Grammy Awards that have his name on them.

>> Daniel Lanois, thanks so much for joining us on Canada Files .

>> Thank you, Jim, for having me on.

I really appreciate your time.

>> I want to start at the beginning.

Most kids growing up in Canada in the '50s and '60s probably wanted to grow up to be Toronto Maple Leafs or Montreal Canadians.

In your case, you wanted to be a musician.

What got your interests going in music?

>> I was never good at sports Then I fell in love with music.

There was a lot of music growing up.

My grandfather was a violineux , as we say in Quebec.

My dad played a bit as well.

My uncles on my mom's side sang old French-Canadian folk songs.

That resonated with me more than sports.

I decided to investigate the music.

It all started with a penny whistle.

I went from there.

>> Your original thought was to grow up to be a musician.

Which I should clarify is still very much part of your career.

You've done solo albums and been a singer as well.

What got you into producing other artists' work.

>> My brother, Bob, and I always had a tape recorder around the house.

The first one was a flea-market machine.

Everything was on-board-- the mike and speakers and all.

I started recording my friends in the neighbourhood.

I got good at it.

I kept getting better equipment.

It's just something I came up with.

I always loved the recording medium.

I never thought I wanted to become a producer.

It was the last thing on my mind.

I was just having fun recording my friends.

Then as I got better at it, more people started asking for my help and advice.

Being musical, I was able to get involved with the arrangements and performances of the music.

So I had an advantage over a technical studio rat.

I was a musical studio rat .

>> Let's get the dumb question out of the way early.

What exactly does a record producer do?

>> Record producers do different things depending on their talent.

As I said...because I'm musical, I was able to get into it from the musical angle.

In my case, I get right in there with the tempo of the song.

The key and arrangement of the song.

Maybe it would be better if we did this twice, and minimized this.

Make the intro shorter, the outro longer.

What seemed like common sense to me is where I went in the recording studio.

So it's always been a musical approach for me.

I know how to work all the equipment.

The advantage I had was my musicality.

>> How collaborative is the process?

I guess it depends on the band.

If you hear a song and think a tuba or a cowbell would go well in a song, does your idea as a producer prevail?

Do you talk it out?

Who has the power to make the final decision?

>> It's a process of psychology.

People come in with written songs.

But there are times when songs get created in the studio.

This is where it gets interesting.

There might be a by-product.

Someone comes up with a riff.

Maybe there's a lyric line that hasn't gotten all the attention.

It's my job to spot these special moments that people may not have noticed on their own terms.

Luckily in the recording studio, unlike film-making, it's easier to change the course of a ship.

Let's leave that aside for now, ...we'll go after this riff that somebody just played.

This is where my talent comes in play.

Because I'm good at spotting something in the state of seed, that could become something really great.

People respect that I have that as part of my talent box.

In a couple of hours, I can take a seed and turn it into something quite finished.

People appreciate that eye or an ear for innovation.

To build something spontaneously.

Back to the tuba.

I don't know if it ever gets that specific.

Because I wouldn't recommend a tuba, if there's not a tuba player in the band.

We try to make sure we maximize house talent.

We have house sound and what is house talent?

The people who come in are the talent.

What do they have that is special about them?

There might be a hidden talent that they don't know about yet.

That's where I pull out my crystal ball and take it out of them.

>> Are you, or producers generally, under-rated or under-valued for the influence you can have on a song or album?

>> I don't think I'm under-rated.

I feel blessed that I've worked with some of the greats.

I sat next to Bob Dylan for making a couple of albums.

For a small-fry from Quebec to suddenly be sitting next to one of the master poet-lyricists of America... this is really something.

I won't just show up at the party.

I want to make sure there is a reason for me to be there.

That my gift enters these peoples' world and music.

That they understand my devotion is 1000%.

That I'm not just going to be a fly on the wall.

I'll make sure that...

I want the very very best for the people I work with.

I think that's enough said on that.

We philosophize, talk about things.

We recognize who and where we are.

And how we can make the best record we can.

Back to Bob Dylan.

The first record I made with him was in New Orleans.

I had just finished making a record with the Neville Brothers, called " Yellow Moon" .

Bob was on tour, stopped in on that session and recognized that we were on fire.

There was something going on that was very unorthodox.

Because we were not in a conventional studio.

We had rented a house on St. Charles Avenue.

The Nevilles lived around the corner.

So we managed to do something very unusual and special, at a time when there was a lot of studio-ightess going around.

A lot of records were sounding the same.

I didn't want Bob's record to sound like everyone else's record.

I wanted Bob to have something special.

So I said to him, "Meet me in the spring.

I'll have a house ready to roll.

You don't need to bring any instruments or musicians.

Show up and I'll have everything ready for you, my friend."

>> Do you only work with bands and artists that you want to work with?

If you don't like the music of an act or artist, and they are sent to you by a record label, will you turn down that opportunity?

Or will you take it as an opportunity to influence their music and make it more to your liking?

>> First of all, I operate by invitation.

I've never really hustled for work.

If an invitation comes, I make an assessment based on what I think I can add.

What contribution could I make to this person.

I've said no a few times when I shouldn't have.

If I could wind the clock back, I would do that.

The first Sinead O'Connor record I was asked to do when I was in Dublin.

Sinead and I are friends so we've done some things together.

If I feel I can make a contribution, and I believe in the artist, then that's enough for me to go on.

That happened with me and Emmylou Harris.

I always loved her voice.

I was invited to make a record with her.

I met her in Nashville.

I liked her right away.

I thought we could do something special together.

She was looking to do something different than she had done before.

And I was ready to rise to the request.

What else could happen for Emmylou Harris.

Where else could we take her music, that beautiful voice.

I think we got to a special place.

We really operate by intuition...largely.

>> That raises another issue.

If an orchestra like the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, came to you and said we hear you're a really good producer.

We want to do a new recording by Mozart or Stravinsky.

Is that something you would feel, as a technical and efficient producer, you could do?

Or would you say you don't touch classical music.

I couldn't do that job for you.

>> Absolutely.

I've recorded orchestras and choirs.

I've done some of that along the way, yes.

I'm not known for that.

I can remember having a full orchestra in my studio in Hamilton.

It was a very small place!

I can't believe we had a 40-piece orchestra in there.

It was ridiculous.

I love all sources of music.

I am a fan of some classical music, of course.

I've recorded a lot of jazz.

In Hamilton, we recorded a lot of jazz for the CBC, back in the day.

I really enjoyed those sessions because they happen quickly.

Usually a 2-day session.

A lot of it was direct to two tracks.

So you would be recording and mixing at the same time.

It was really something very special.

I remember some of the greats from Toronto at that time.

I was hanging out with Dave Piltch for awhile.

He was a great bass player from Toronto.

We record a lot of jazz records together.

>> Of all the albums you've produced, what are some of your favourites?

>> I heard the U2 " Achtung Baby " record recently.

I was at somebody's house and they had it on.

I was really able to appreciate the power of the rhythm section and the adventurous lyrics, toppings and melodies.

I thought that was quite an accomplishment to serve the bedrock of rock and roll and to take the sentiments, lyrics and melodies to a futuristic place.

>> Are there any albums you've produced that you've not liked or even hated.

And when you hear them now, you can tell that you didn't really like doing it and it wasn't your best work?

>> I never carry on with something if it doesn't feel right.

Sometimes it's best to walk away than to do something half-baked.

I've been lucky that way.

I enjoy all the work that I've done, on some level or other.

Some of it sounds like it belongs to a specific time.

Maybe it has a bit of an '80s feel.

But there is charm in that because if you take a proper snapshot of something that's going on at the time it will have innocence built in it.

So I appreciate the innocence of a lot of my past work.

>> Do you listen to any of your past work, or hear it on the car radio as you're driving into work and think... 3 - 10 years later, I wish I'd put the cowbell or the tuba into that section of the music but we didn't.

I'd almost like to redo it.

>> I never have those thoughts.

I never have regrets about approach.

We managed to sidestep those regrets by getting it to a special place to begin with.

That's the most important thing.

If something sounds like it have magic in it, then all is forgiven stylistically.

>> What was the worst experience that you've had a on a project?

I don't expect you to name names.

Have there been some along the way that have been like pulling teeth or just the chemistry wasn't there.

If so, did you complete the job?

Or you eluded to just walking away.

>> I think most of my problems have been technical.

I can remember making a U2 record by the River Boyne.

We were powering our equipment with river power.

They had a turbine in the river.

Sometimes we'd been down to 92 volts, praying the tape recorder could keep up.

I've never walked away from anything because it wasn't happening for any reason.

We override...any complications.

We just barrel through.

If there's respect, fundamentally, with the people I'm working with, it will override any concerns.

>> The delivery of music-- the physical product, has changed radically in the last 50 years.

When you first started out, it was all vinyl.

Then there was 8-track, cassettes, CDs and DVDs.

Do you believe the production quality, exhibited in the physical product, is better today than it was 50 years ago?

>> Some things are better today than they were a long time ago.

We are currently using a digital multi-track recorder.

We can make a copy of a multi- track by with the push of one button.

That used to be a complicated process of bringing in another 2-inch machine.

Make an analog tape copy.

Some of the sounds may not survive the process so well.

I don't miss that part of things.

A lot of the urban records are very high-fidelity.

People are doing things we never did before.

If there's a criticism--anything I miss from back in the day, there was more air around the sounds.

People reference Led Zeppelin records to this day because they have that in them.

You feel the presence of people.

The depth of the field.

Someone standing farther back than the front character.

The record I made with Dylan, called " Time out of Mind" has that in it-- a lot of depth.

We were in a big room with a lot of people.

It's one of the tonalities that I'm proud of, on that record.

If you have that kind of ear and you understand that there is depth to be had in sound.

Not just a photographic term.

You can keep making adjustments as you go along.

Think of it like a painting.

It's okay if something might be in the shadows.

Your front character is more brightly lit.

I don't like hearing records where everything is on the same plane.

I don't think that is so good.

We as humans like that something is lurking in the bushes.

>> You mentionned the word "painting".

I often wonder if a music producer is like a painter.

A painter finishes his last stroke with his brush and says it's done.

How do you know or feel when a song is done?

>> Certain things feel done.

I'm working with Wayne Lorenz.

He's also from Toronto.

We have a few mixes on the go right now.

The songs that will make the finish line to my next record.

The mixes are done.

We don't question anything about them.

We love them!

Other ones never reach that position.

Others we are pushing and pulling more.

But that's okay...to question, keep going after something.

Because we've done that a lot and gotten to a better place.

If we're lucky enough to get one that's perfect, then let it be.

Others you have to keep experimenting with them... by stripping...

The advantage over painters is the paint never dries.

We can just peel it away-- an onion skin process.

We could strip things back down, especially with this modern equipment.

Is anything ever really done?

Yup.

Some things are ready to go out.

We put them out, feel confident.

>> I admire your ability to have that finality.

You mention Wayne from Toronto.

You're from Hamilton.

Bob Ezrin from Toronto.

Has being Canadian for you, informed or influenced your work in any way?

>> I think Canadians are curious by nature.

Robbie Robertson, a hero of mine, a generation ahead of me, from Hagersville near Hamilton.

He was very courageous, as a trailblazer, and went south to be in the environment of the music that he loved and grew up with.

You might say that I followed in Robbie's footsteps by going to New Orleans.

Because I wanted to be in that town where Little Richard and Louis Armstrong had recorded.

The list never ends.

To be in the environment is probably one of the greatest teachers.

It all leads to doing better work.

As a Canadian, we never had that kind of culture in Canada.

We had great poets, and lot of great folk musicians.

But the grooves I was interested in, lived in the South.

So I decided to go south.

So we are curious as Canadians.

>> You've won seven Grammy awards, a Juno award.

You have a star on Canada's Walk of Fame in Toronto.

You were appointed a Member of the Order of Canada in 2018.

Among many honours and accolades.

What's your proudest achievement?

>> It's nice to be recognized.

Because that provides encouragement to carry on.

I feel my greatest achievement is always ahead of me... yet to come.

With encouragement and curiousity intact, and an appetite to head to the unknown sonically .

Those three ingredients keep us going.

We don't look back.

If I go out on a date, I might walk by the sidewalk and say, "Look, somebody put a star with my name on it!"

In Toronto on King Street, I think it is.

Awards are just awards.

We strive to do the best work we can.

Let me explain... we all came up with heroes.

I love Jim Hendrix and Robbie Robertson as a guitar player.

But I'm not Robbie or Jimmy.

When I'm making a record, I don't try to sound like those guys.

I respect that they inspired me.

Then we have a responsibility to sidestep any mimic, and to take things to the future.

Anything I bump into the studio with Wayne Lorenz, we get very excited if we hit on something that's never been done before.

That's the way to go.

If we can get to that, that's the achievement that I prefer, rather than a star on a sidewalk.

>> One last question I ask all my guests on Canada Files .

Simple and you partially answered it but you might have other thoughts.

What does being Canadian mean to you?

>> I feel very fortunate that I came up in Canada.

Wayne and I talk about this all the time.

What would it have been like if we were in Africa, or someplace riddled with problems?

I thank my lucky stars that I was able to grow up in a place where I had advantages and was able to buy equipment.

I didn't come up with wealth or anything else like that.

My mom was a single mom, struggled and all that.

How bad was the struggle... not that bad.

She loved us.

We loved her.

I was able to build a recording studio in her house.

And get on with all that.

It's nice to go back to Canada.

Maybe not now, we'll wait for the thaw to come.

Then we'll see you up there, Jim.

>> Daniel Lanois, thanks so much.

Great answers and very nice to be with you.

>> Thank you, Jim.

Maybe the next one we'll do me and Robbie.

That'd be fun.

Maybe Ezrin...

The Three Stooges .

>> That would be awesome.

And thank you for watching.

We appreciate your support of Canada Files .

We'll see you again on the next edition.

♪